68. Lot's Wife (Genesis)

Lizzie 

Hello, and welcome to Mytholadies, the podcast where we talk about women from mythology and folklore all over the world. We're your hosts.

Zoe 

I'm Zoe.

Lizzie 

And I'm Lizzie. And how are you today, Zoe?

Zoe 

I'm all right, I realized that I only have like four weeks left in the semester, which is crazy. That is not including Thanksgiving week, which is mainly off for me, because I live in the US. But still, that's quite a revelation to have. I have a lot that I will have to be getting done. So that's exciting. But how are you, Lizzie?

Lizzie 

I'm good. There's this cat that lives somewhere near me. And he's always coming in my window. But like, basically every single day and spending a bunch of hours hanging out with me, which is really fun. Like, it's like I kind of have a cat that belongs to someone else. And they probably don't even know that he comes into my window and hangs out with me.

Zoe 

Do you know for sure it's someone else's cat?

Lizzie 

I mean, I assume so because I live high up. I don't think he

Zoe 

Oh, true. True. True. True. Yeah.

Lizzie 

Otherwise, he doesn't have a collar.

Zoe 

Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of cats don't wear collars. My sister's cat doesn't wear a collar because she hates it.

Lizzie 

He's literally at my window right now

Zoe 

Oh my gosh, hello,

Lizzie 

Sorry I can't let you you in because I'm recording.

Zoe 

Oh, so sad.

Lizzie 

I usually let him in when he meows at my window because I love him.

Zoe 

Do you have a name for him?

Lizzie 

We call him Marvin.

Zoe 

That's so cute.

Lizzie 

He's adorable. I love him.

Zoe 

Has he brought you any presents?

Lizzie 

No, but I do have a ribbon I use to play with him. And he sometimes brings it to me to play with.

Zoe 

Oh, that's so cute.

Lizzie 

It's literally so cute. But it's also he tries to steal it sometimes like he tries to go out the window with ot and I have to stop him because like if I didn't have that ribbon, what would I play with him with?

Zoe 

Yeah, very true.

Lizzie 

I have to grab it. He's really funny. Yeah, anyway. So before we begin, we would just like to remind you all that if you would like to listen to our bonus content, or just to support us financially, you can either support us on ko-fi or on Spotify subscriptions, both of which are linked in the show notes.

Zoe 

Well we have bonus episodes, we've got three bonus episodes. So if you subscribe, or donate, we will, you will be able to listen to those episodes. So that's cool and fun.

Lizzie 

And they are very fun and they're more laid back then our main episodes.

Zoe 

We get to we share our real thoughts our real thoughts and opinions.

Lizzie 

[laughs] Uncensored.

Zoe 

Uncensored, Lizzie and Zoe uncut. We get to tell you what we really think about Greek mythology rewrites. We have many opinions. Yeah, no, we do share real thoughts here too. But.

Lizzie 

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Just trying to entice you all to listen.

Zoe 

No, you should. They're really fun. I like them. They are they are very fun and interesting.

Lizzie 

Anyway, so who are we talking about today?

Zoe 

So, Lizzie, don't look behind you. Because today I'm talking about Lot's wife.

Lizzie 

Oh, okay.

Zoe 

Do you know the story of Lot's wife?

Lizzie 

That is in the Bible.

Zoe 

Yes, it exists in Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Do you know the story?

Lizzie 

Okay, maybe I maybe I don't, maybe I don't know. Okay.

Zoe 

I'm going to just read you the biblical passage in which she is mentioned. This is from the New American Bible Revised Edition from Genesis chapter 19, verses 20 through 26. "The sun had risen over the earth when Lot arrived and Zoar and the Lord rained down sulfur upon Sodom and Gomorrah, fire from the Lord out of heaven. He overthrew those cities and the whole Plain, together with the inhabitants of the cities and the produce of the soil. But Lot's wife looked back and she was turned into a pillar of salt."

Lizzie 

Oh, okay. Oh, that's, that's it?

Zoe 

That's it. That's what we got from her.

Lizzie 

That's so interesting. Okay. I'm looking forward to finding out more.

Zoe 

Yeah. So I mean, the full story is that this is the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is actually quite a hot button, biblical story for various reasons. And the story, as it's told is that there is a city called Sodom in which the inhabitants are doing all sorts of evil and wicked things. And God wants to—

Lizzie 

I would guess that's where sodomy comes from.

Zoe 

It is where sodomy comes from. Yes, you're right. And Abraham asks that he wait a minute, and if Abraham can find 50 truly good people within the city, then will God spare the city and God agrees to this. And then Abraham sort of continues like bartering and reduces the number until God agrees to spare the city if Abraham finds 10 good people, and then two angels go to Sodom in the evening to the house of Lot, who is a good and righteous man, and he invites them into the house and hosts them. Meanwhile, a crowd of angry townsmen surround the house and demand that Lot bring out the new men and the angels in town. And a lot of the versions of the story are a demand that the people of the town can have sex with the angels, but Lot refuses and also offers his daughters instead, which is a very, is a questionable choice, but they refuse that. And then finally, the crowd drives them all out, and Lot leaves with his wife and daughters. They're the only ones who escaped the destruction of the city although as we know his wife does. The Lord tells them as they're leaving to keep going don't look back but the his wife disobeys, the Lord turns back and is turned into a pillar of salts because of because she disobeys

Lizzie 

That's very Eurydicean.

Zoe 

Uh huh. We will talk about that a little bit, just a little bit. And so too, when we're talking about Sodom and Gomorrah, I do want to mention the fact that like, this is a story that is used a lot by homophobic conservative Christians to justify their bigotry and their hatred of LGBT+ people. And I feel like I could talk about scholar studies which discussed whether the sins of Sodom was homosexuality or not. I've could I looked at studies, I typed up summaries of the like the, the thoughts and scholars. And whether or not the scriptures are homophobic texts. But I think that is honestly kind of pointless, because regardless of whether like, you could go down to the real meat of it, and like look at the specific words and translations and stuff and different interpretations and where these interpretations come from all you want. But regardless of like what the actual text is, the fact is, it's being used in this way, regardless of like what the actual meaning could or couldn't be.

Lizzie 

Yeah.

Zoe 

And the homophobic fundamental Christian that is using this text, if it's for their own personal like agenda is not going to care. That, oh, this verb actually means this. And so therefore, you're wrong. Like, they're not going to care about that. You know what I mean?

Lizzie 

Yeah.

Zoe 

And so I think like, it's kind of like pointless to really get into the weeds of it, because like, regardless of like, what it actually says, like it's still being used in this way. And I also feel like, regardless of what the original intention of the writers of the story was, and what actually happened, which are both things that are basically impossible to prove definitively, we can't improve, like, prove the original intention of whoever wrote the story down first, or what actually happened in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, like it's too far, far, like long ago, what is written in the sacred texts of a specific religion or specific religions should not be the basis for determining an entire group of people's right to exist happily and be who would with who they love, etcetera. Like, regardless of what a specific text said, that shouldn't like, determine people's basic human rights.

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely. Also I just realized why you said before, don't look behind you. It's Lot's wife.

Zoe 

Yeah. I realized that didn't work. I guess you didn't know.

Lizzie 

it took me a few minutes. In my defense, I had a picture of Medusa on my wall. I was like, Oh, it's nothing to do with Medusa?

Zoe 

Oh, oh, yeah, that's very fair. But yeah. So yeah, that's my only thought about—

Lizzie 

Took me few minutes to process that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Zoe 

—Sodom and Gomorrah. And it's like, yeah, I mean, there are if it is important to you

Lizzie 

So Sodom. Sodom and Gomorrah are like equally sinful or like,

Zoe 

yeah. They're both like evil, sinful cities, and they get destroyed.

Lizzie 

So even though sodomy is from Sodom, they're like they're equal.

Zoe 

Yeah. Is Yeah. So the story seems to like based in the Bible seems to basically focus on Sodom, which is why we get sodomy, sodomite, things like that. But then also, there's also Gomorrah.

Lizzie 

Got it.

Zoe 

But yeah, so those are my thoughts about this story. And I do think it's important to acknowledge because this is like a real significant thing. But also,

Lizzie 

There's very little to go off of, it's like three sentences.

Zoe 

But yeah, but also and if it's really important for you, personally, you can look up texts that will be like, this is why this story isn't actually homophobic or why like, there's proof that like, these scriptures and texts aren't actually like homophobic. You can find those if you want. But I just felt like going into the weeds of it for the sake of this episode was not it was kind of pointless.

Lizzie 

Yeah, I mean if you have the bias against gay people already. It's not gonna matter the facts.

Zoe 

Yeah, like people who are bigoted don't actually care about facts. They care about their own personal agendas, and they don't care about hypocrisy.

Lizzie 

And there can be very little like, little to no actual I evidence of homophobia, but they will find it if that's what they truly want to believe.

Zoe 

Yeah. But anyway, so that's the story is that's the only time she's mentioned in. Like, that's the that's her story full story. She's escaping from the city with her husband and in children. And she turns back and is turned into a pillar of salt. And that is her story as a whole.

Lizzie 

Okay, a question, do we know what happens to her when she's a pillar of salt?

Zoe 

Well, so there's actually a few different things that happen. So some stories say that she like dissolves. But there's actually the idea of Lot's wife as a pillar of salt became an important like pilgrimage site for Christians, particularly especially in the Middle Ages. So when people would travel to like Palestine, in the Middle Ages to do their like pilgrimaging as they did, a big thing was to find like the pillar of salt, that was Lot's wife. And so that was actually like an important site, which implies that like, she didn't disappear at all, she was still standing. There are actually some geographic, there is a geographic feature near the Dead Sea at Mount Sodom, which is, like, considered to be potentially Lot's wife a pillar of salt. And there's actually also several other geographic features that have been named after Lot's wife ever since, like, not in that area, but like, you find like a large feature that's made of like, salt, and you'd be like, Oh, that's the Lot's wife island now or something like that.

Lizzie 

I'm assuming you'll talk about this. But like, is there a specific significance to salt?

Zoe 

Yeah, there actually, there actually is. So one of the beliefs for the salt is that she "sinned with salt" quote, unquote. So this is not in the Bible, or in any of the texts. But like, I think one of the stories about it is that when she was preparing a meal for the angels, she realized she didn't have any salt. And so she went to one of her neighbors to borrow some salt. And then since she went to borrow some salt, she alerted their neighbors to the presence of guests in their house. And that led to the angry mob forming. And so therefore, because she caused this like incident to happen, she was turned into salt as punishment. There are also like interpretations of salt being you know, something that kind of is a dead thing. You know, if you like salt, the fields, nothing can grow there, because it's destroys like the it's not like healthy soil that plants can grow in. And then there are also people that like have an analyze it is like, she's amount of calcium, like have evaporated tears or something like that, you know?

Lizzie 

Okay. I mean, yeah, that'll make sense. Isn't salt kind of like a purifying substance?

Zoe 

It is a purifying substance too. So like, you know, she was turned into like a purifying substance. And because she was like, sinful, so she, you know, got turned into it.

Lizzie 

Yeah. Just cleansed.

Zoe 

Or like, she evaporated and all that was left was salt, you know, like, disintegrated?

Lizzie 

Yeah.

Zoe 

But yeah. So, the traditional analysis is generally that she was punished for disobeying that warning to not look back. So first of all, second of all, by looking back, she revealed a secret desire for the sinful life that she was leaving behind in the cities. And so therefore, since she was showing a secret longing for that sinful life, she didn't deserve to live and deserved to be destroyed, like the rest of the people in those cities at the time. Another possible interpretation is that Lot's wife witnessed God descending down upon the city, in the destruction and therefore as a normal human couldn't bear like her body physically couldn't stand to see God's glory and therefore disintegrated into salt, which I think is interesting, personally, I think it's a fun little story. Then in the text, "Lot's Wife is Still Standing" by Katherine Low, Low offers the commentary that when Lot's wife appears in Targumim, which is translations and commentary of the Hebrew Bible into Aramaic, she serves as a monument in liminal territory on the cusp of salvation, but not quite, lingering on the hope of repentance, or at least the possibility she could experience future judgment. Therefore, authors evoke her during a time in conversations around resurrection ideas about God's image judgment, were expanding. So like, another interpretation of her story is that like, she exists on the border between damnation and salvation. And she sort of shows like The what happens if you'd like waver on the border between the two, because she was like, so close to freedom and like, being saved, and she just hesitated for a moment and then got destroyed. So like the idea is you can't hesitate at all.

Lizzie 

What if she didn't hesitate. And she just wanted to see I mean, that's like that was her home. I mean, of course, she's gonna want to sort of mourn the loss of her home, right?

Zoe 

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing isn't it? Like that's the thing about Lot's wife that I find really compelling. And I'm gonna want to talk a bit more about that later. But like, I mean, of course, this is like a religious text. religious texts aren't always the most well developed when it comes to characters and character motivations. But it's also like an incredibly human thing to look back at like your home, even if it was evil and sinful. And like you got driven out of it by an angry mob to like, look back at it, because you're never going to see it again. It's about to be destroyed, like to look back is completely normal. And so the fact that she suffered such like, an extreme fate is just like, very compelling and like tragic to me as well.

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely. Because that's, that is a very normal thing to do. I mean, it's like Orpheus, which I assume we'll talk about in a bit, so I'll like leave you to that your own time, but it is like, of course, you're gonna look back. You know?

Zoe 

Yeah. And also speaking about like the sort of hesitation. Lot's wife is referenced by Jesus in Luke chapter 17, verse 32, as a warning not to waver in one's faith. So like, Don't look back, don't waver in your faith, you have to keep going forward.

Lizzie 

Makes sense. Yeah.

Zoe 

Yeah, then there are a lot of scholars that interpreted her looking back as the sign that she herself is a sinful woman. And because Sodom and Gomorrah is associated specifically with sexual sin and a lot of ways that she is a sexually sinful woman. And so a lot of the time, many Christian scholars, including St. Jerome, who was like a very famous early Christian scholar, he, I think, made a really like important version of the Bible. Anyway, he said that he used like her example as a way to encourage like people to follow an ascetic lifestyle, an ascetic lifestyle, and to you know, not have sex to remain chaste. And to not like, longing for material like goods and comforts and pleasures and stuff. Yeah. And actually, something interesting in Islam in the Quran is that in the story is different. Lot's wife does not flee with her husband, at the destruction of the city, but is destroyed with everyone else. So the guilt and like the fact that she's guilty and sinful is pretty inherent in that, like, she isn't even considered possibly able to be saved.

Lizzie 

Yeah, that's interesting. Is it? Is she particularly important in Islam? Seems to be like, she's kind of more important in Christianity. But.

Zoe 

I mean, she's not. Again, she's only mentioned in like that one sentence. And then she's like, referenced because in like, is like, watch out. Don't be like this woman. But she's not a huge like, ly important figure. What's actually more significant is that she became more of an interesting figure for like scholars and like literary figures.

Lizzie 

Yeah.

Zoe 

And throughout the time, so yeah. But so I've listed, like some of the more traditional classical interpretations so far, but like, what are your thoughts so far?

Lizzie 

I mean, I have things that like, I assume that you're going to talk about, like how I mean, the analysis is based around like, you don't know exactly what was going on, like, you don't know what her motivation was turned around, or exactly why she was punished. It's all kind of speculation. And a common theme on this podcast is like, women get the much less generous interpretations when it comes to their motivations. And like that, that tracks in terms of like, Oh, she was a sinner, she was longing to go back to her like den of sin, even though it was being destroyed because she was so sinful. But like, like you said, it is a very human thing to like, look back at your home as you're fleeing it. She's gonna see it for the last time. That's extremely sad. Even if it is a bad place. Obviously, there's an Orpheus and Eurydice parallel, they're being told not to look back and then looking back and getting punished.

Zoe 

Yeah, I mean, I think it's difficult because like, I in a way I completely agree, I do think she is being punished because, like, it's hard to view looking back and being turned into a pillar of salt as anything that could be perceived as positive. So she is being punished. And the question is, for what, and therefore, like, I don't know, I kind of prefer the looking upon God's glory and being destroyed thing just because I think it's interesting, because it's interesting. Yeah. Um, but

Lizzie 

Like, either beause, like, couldn't handle it, like physically as a human or like, because she was punished by God. Like, you're not allowed to see.

Zoe 

I mean, I think it's I personally like prefer the, like, humans can't look upon God's true form sort of story that is generally told, at least in Indiana Jones movies. But.

Lizzie 

I haven't seen Indiana Jones movies.

Zoe 

Oh, well, anyways,

Lizzie 

God is there?

Zoe 

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we can't get can't get into that now. It's about like, a lot of like biblical artifacts and stuff like The Ark of the Covenant where the Holy Grail, and things like that. And it takes place during World War Two and a bunch of Nazis get their faces melted off by God. And it's pretty good.

Lizzie 

That's pretty fun.

Zoe 

Yeah. But anyways, we can't get into the religious, religious symbolism of Indiana Jones right now, that's a whole other topic. But so yeah, like, I agree, I can't like disagree with scholars and that, it seems like a punishment, but I feel like we can also just disagree with the message. Like, if the message is looking back is bad. I can say well, yeah, kind of disagree with that, you know, like, this is, you know, this is a religious text. It has certain ideas and probably morals that it's trying to convey to the readers. And I can be like, Well, I disagree with that particular one, you know,

Lizzie 

yeah. But it's entirely up to interpretation, because it's so open, and it's so vague and short.

Zoe 

It's literally just one sentence like, yeah, and also, like, Christians, in the Middle Ages, were looking for any reason to vilify women and tell people to not have sex. So like.

Lizzie 

Exactly.

Zoe 

Yeah. So going back to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and its associations with like the fundamental Christian movement and homophobia, I actually found an interesting like, gay interpretation of the story. And so in Heather Love's work Feeling Backwards, she describes the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as a monument to destruction, an emblem of eternal regret due to being cut off from her family and future and a deep sense of loss that many queer people experience. However, Love also argues that that Lot's wife serves as a very important reminder for the LGBT community, because she demonstrates that we can't let ourselves be ruined by the sorrows of the past. But we also need to look forward to the future and the creation of the better of a better world. Yeah, but also, this doesn't mean we can't ignore it, we shouldn't acknowledge the past at all, but rather, the past, present and future should be celebrated and honored together. So in this interpretation of Lot's wife, I think is interesting, and that we can't keep holding on to the past. That the past, like, if you get stuck on the past and can't let go of the past that will drag you down is something I agree with. Yeah. You know, that's, that is a sentiment that I can support. And so like the idea that we can't just be stuck in the past, we have to keep going forward into the future is like, yeah, that sounds that I agree with. And I like that, Heather Love like, interprets that specifically for like, the gay lib movement and stuff. And another thing that is interesting, and a slightly less positive side of Lot's wife, which sort of plays into what I talked about earlier, when I said that Lot's wife be like a potential monument that could be her what became a pilgrimage site is that she kind of became a symbol of colonialism for Christian imperialists, and particular she sort of represented a kind of ideal or idealized feminized figure lost in the perceived chaotic and savage wilderness of the lands they were invading. Like, for example, she was seen as standing in the quote, "wild and dangerous deserts of Arabia." And also in colonial accounts, colonizers would reference the experience of looking back at their own lives while entering the wilds of the wilderness as they were entering beyond those are huge quotes, obviously, around wilds and wilderness,

Lizzie 

So they put themselves in the shoes of Lot's wife.

Zoe 

Yeah,

Lizzie 

That's interesting, if they were vilifying her for being sinful.

Zoe 

Well, this is like a lot later, this is in the 19th century. So like peak imperialist era, but and it also sort of represented in many ways, this kind of like lost glorious civilization that no longer existed, but people sought to uncover. This is a time when archaeology is becoming a really big thing, especially in like, for the British and also in a pretty unethical way a lot of the time at this point. And especially like digs in places like Egypt and Palestine, like the work of white people to try and uncover the last like glorious civilizations of like, primarily people of color, like and she sort of represents that while also ignoring like, the very real like living nations like civilizations of people who still exist on those lands to this day, and that are simultaneously being like oppressed and viewed as less than and other eyes by the people. Like by the colonizers.

Lizzie 

So they, they used her, her potential monument pillar of salt, as like an excuse to, to invade lands because they were Christian lands?

Zoe 

Not like as an excuse to invade but she sort of became like a symbol, because, okay, sorry, this is uh, okay, sorry, backing up backing up. I forgot to mention this thing. There was like, a monument that was seen as like, a monument for Lot's wife. That was like Lot's wife that was considered, that was written about, but by like, the 19, the 1800s. It wasn't really known where it was. So they would go to like looking for it.

Lizzie 

To find a pillar of salt and be like, that's her.

Zoe 

Yes.  And so in that way she's sort of became like the symbol of these lost civilizations that they were hoping to uncover, while also simultaneously oppressing the very real people that still lived on these lands whose like—

Lizzie 

Got it.  That makes sense.

Zoe 

—lives they were destroying through their like exploration and imperial like conquests. And like, as I sort of talked about before, Lot's wife is seen as kind of a border figure in general, she's on that border between like damnation and salvation. And she just turns around at that last moment. And so in the book, Imperial Leather: Race, Gender and Sexuality in the Colonial Context by Anne McClintock, she argues that European travelers and writers feminized borders and their writings and use female figures and feminized monuments as ways to orient themselves. And sort of the concept of discovery on the border between what is known and what is seen is like strange and unknown takes on a kind of erotic quality. And so in that way, you can sort of see the ways that they talk about finding the lost figure of Lot's wife, and also, like exploring these and being like Lot's wife on the edges of these, quote unquote, "untamed wildernesses" as kind of taking on like this sort of erotic quality as well.

Lizzie 

Interesting.

Zoe 

And so finally, Lot's wife, as I said before, has become a hugely symbolic figure in literature like she's been referenced in probably countless books, a pretty popular image of like Lot's wife looking back, but either at something like in a physical sense, either in something in a metaphorical sense, like looking back at one's memories. And so some prominent examples that were featured on the Wikipedia page were that she's referenced in Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut, and a short story by Shirley Jackson called "Pillar of Salt." And both of these stories have to do with the destruction of cities for like Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five has to do with the bombing of Dresden during World War Two. And so that's sort of like, what the references about is like the destruction of these cities, but the one I really wanted to talk about, which is the story the piece of work that inspired me to do this episode in the first place is the poem "Lot's Wife" by Anna Akhmatova, which I shall now read to you know, so this is "Lot's Wife," and it's translated by Stanley Kunitz and Max Hayward.  "And the just man trailed God's shining agent, over a black mountain, in his giant track, while a restless voice kept harrying his woman: "It's not too late, you can still look back  at the red towers of your native Sodom, the square where once you sang, the spinning-shed, at the empty windows set in the tall house where sons and daughters blessed your marriage-bed."  A single glance: a sudden dart of pain stitching her eyes before she made a sound . . . Her body flaked into transparent salt, and her swift legs rooted to the ground.  Who will grieve for this woman? Does she not seem too insignificant for our concern? Yet in my heart I never will deny her, who suffered death because she chose to turn."

Lizzie 

That's a nice poem.

Zoe 

Yeah. So as you can see by this poem, a lot of the literary interpretations of Lot's wife take on a much more sympathetic view, than the interpretations from biblical scholars in the Middle Ages. And so, in Lot's wife, the poem by Akhmatova, she is writing this poem right around the end of the Russian Civil War, which is when the Bolsheviks took over and began establishing the USSR. And at that time, there was a mass emigration out of Russia of people who did not want to live under the Bolshevik rule. And a lot of people who were like, either doing self imposed exile or being exiled, and many of these people are writers who do not agree with the Bolshevik ideology, there is a became a massive expat literary scene that sprung up from Russian writers who no longer lived in Russia. And Anna Akhmatova did not choose to leave Russia. But she also was not fully down with the Bolsheviks and did suffer for that later in life, although she was never executed for her opinions. But in this way, you can sort of interpret this poem as her sympathizing with the people who choose to leave Russia at the end of the war because of this great political upheaval, and sort of the experience of people who are leaving their home to never return to it most likely, and sympathizing with the people who decide to turn back and just look at their home one last time. And I mean, I think that sort of just gets to what we were talking about before of like how human it is to just want to look at your home one last time.

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely.

Zoe 

And I think like when we talk about people who, I mean, this is also incredibly relevant now because there's also a mass group of emigration from Russia happening like right now, because of the war in Ukraine. Like, it's easy to consider like, oh, well, Russia is bad. Of course, you don't want to live there, but also like the actual pain of like, leaving your homeland, not by choice and to never be able to return to it again is like really difficult in like, in destroying,

Lizzie 

Yeah, like regardless of whether it's like a good place to live like it's your home.

Zoe 

It's your home, and you might still have family there and you might like, never be able to return. And it's like really difficult. And so I think that like, there's the aspect of, yeah, of course, you're gonna look back. And like, yeah, we are can fully relate to those people who just take that chance to look back one last time, even if it means their destruction, because it's just so much, you know?

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely. And like the grief of having to leave your homeland.

Zoe 

Yeah.

Lizzie 

And like Lot's wife potentially turning back fully with the knowledge that she's about to die.

Zoe 

Yeah, which is also a really interesting, I think, interpretation of the stories that it was intentional, and that she couldn't bear to leave her homelands.

Lizzie 

And that she was like, immortalized sort of like, turning back to look at the destruction of her homeland.

Zoe 

Yeah. And then becoming part of the homeland.

Lizzie 

To be honest, I don't know exactly what a pillar of salt is supposed to look like.

Zoe 

Yeah. So like, there's a scene in supernatural [Lizzie laughs] where someone is turned into- Stop, stop. You're not allowed to laugh, where someone gets turned into a pillar of salt, and they like, just get turned into like rose salt crystals and dissolve. And so that's what I always imagined. But then it's like, no, she's an actual, like, geographic landform.

Lizzie 

Like, kind rock looking.

Zoe 

Yeah, like salt rock, like, like a salt lick, you know, that animals

Lizzie 

Yeah, sort of frozen and like a somewhat human looking formation of just like salt.

Zoe 

Yeah. And so, yeah, that's an interesting idea as well.

Lizzie 

Yeah, like of her being, being immortalized just in, and also like that, since she did that and since she turned back and got turned into salt, like, she doesn't have to leave. She never has to leave.

Zoe 

Yeah. Which is very true. One must imagine Lot's wife happy, etc. But yeah, I mean, another thing that you've pointed out, Lizzie, and that other people have pointed out is that the story of Lot's wife has often been compared to that of Orpheus, and Eurydice. And in fact, my directing Professor made this exact comparison about a week ago, but isn't an accurate comparison. One thing I want to talk about briefly is that Orpheus and Eurydice is not even the only mythological story besides Lot's wife that involves looking back and being destroyed and something destructive happening. Like we had a story. I think it was in the Cherokee sun goddess episode.

Lizzie 

Yeah, no, I was also thinking of that exactly.

Zoe 

Where she looked back, or was it looking back?

Lizzie 

I think she she wasn't allowed to look.

Zoe 

She wasn't allowed to look at her daughter in the box, right?

Lizzie 

Yeah, exactly. Her daughter was being taken from hell in like a box that she wasn't allowed to look in the box. But she did because you want to see if her daughter was there. Yeah, like looking. Yeah.

Zoe 

Yeah. As a, and that being a bad thing and getting punished for that. So this isn't even the only story. Of course, obviously Orpheus and Eurydice is the most famous version and like, I love a good Orpheus and Eurydice retelling. I think it's very interesting. But yeah, but is it an accurate comparison? This is an open question, because I don't know. Lizzie, in the original story, why does Orpheus turn around to look at Eurydice? What are your thoughts?

Lizzie 

Well, obviously, we don't know 100% with certainty, like I've, the obvious is just like he wanted to make sure that she was actually there and he wasn't being fooled. Or just like because he loved her, you know? And like, that's just the kind of human response. Of course, he's gonna look back because because he loves her, like the fact that he looked back even though it ended up killing her was an act of love.

Zoe 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this particular part of the story of Orpheus looking back is something that's been interpreted and reinterpreted and redone in many different ways. It's like probably everyone's favorite part of the myth.

Lizzie 

It's definitely the most famous part.

Zoe 

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's been talked about, like in Portrait of a Lady on fire, they talk about it a lot. Like, Eurydice choosing to let him look back and things like that? But, I mean, I think that's an interesting because I think, in a way, both stories have to do with doubt. I think one could say for sure. Or if he is turning back does seem like a doubtful thing. Not knowing that she was there, and Lot's wife having doubts about her future, possibly, but also, I do feel like Orpheus, his decision to turn back probably has less relating to a desire for the past than Lot's wife does, although like maybe not, like, the way I see it is Lot's wife is looking back at the land that she used to live on. And sort of like thinking, what am I like, where am I going from here? Whereas Orpheus is like looking back to see the person that he loves, but also like, theoretically, if he doesn't look back, he can be with this person again.

Lizzie 

But also, if he doesn't look back, how can he know for 100% certain that she's even there?

Zoe 

Yeah. So then there's like the doubt but so yeah, I mean, again, I think that like, of course, there is the message of like, Don't look back, trust the future keep going forward or whatever. But I think that the motivations, I mean, of course, this depends on interpretation, because the motivation is all up into interpretation. Because we don't know, we can't say, but I think that like, there, it's not a perfect comparison is what I'm trying to say. You know.

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely.

Zoe 

Like, and that's my, my thoughts on this subject.

Lizzie 

Yeah, cuz, well, I mean, there's nothing that she could do about it, it's not like she could save her home by by looking back or by not looking back.

Zoe 

Yeah. It was getting destroyed anyhow. But she just wanted to see it one last time before it was destroyed, you know. Yeah. And then like Orpheus was looking back. I mean, like, you could, there's a, we can't like go into a full Orpheus Eurydice thing, because that's a whole other episode to talk about, like, but like, you could think of, you know, Orpheus thinking, well, I don't know she's there. But if she is there, at least I'll see her one more time or something like that, like the cost benefit analysis of like, not looking back at all versus looking back and seeing her but then losing her again.

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely.

Zoe 

I don't know. But anyways, ultimately, I just, I just feel connected to Lot's wife. And like a certain way, I just really like find her story very compelling, which is interesting, because she literally has like one sentence of story. And it's also really interesting how this one sentence of story has, like, truly inspired. And like, found its way into so many different, like works of literature, there was an essay I was reading that I ended up not really using, because it was just all about different, like works of literature that incorporated her story. And I was like, this is very interesting, but also like, not helping me on the mythological interpretation side of things. So yeah, it's used in a lot of different literature. It's like a question of memory. And it's a question of like, a question of obedience, a question of values and things like that. And so I think they like, you know, being punished for doing something that is very much human nature is very interesting. And something that I don't love. But then also, in a way, I do understand the message of like to not hold on to the past, because I think holding on to the past or always wanting to look to the past can be very dangerous. But also, I understand that is the draw to look to the past as well. And so there's—

Lizzie 

Are you supposed to just forget everything that's ever happened to you. Like, it's important to look back in the past as well. Like, not to dwell, but you can't just look towards the future all the time.

Zoe 

Yeah. Like the past can inform the future. But you also can't only want the things to be like they were in the past.

Lizzie 

Yeah.

Zoe 

And so I just think her story is really interesting and kind of sad, and I think about her a lot.

Lizzie 

I mean, it is very sad.

Zoe 

Bad pun. Oy. [they laugh] Oops, unintentional.

Lizzie 

Took me a second there.

Zoe 

Yeah, but yeah, I, I'm a fan. I'm thinking about her. And that's all I got.

Lizzie 

And then in a way, it's like another tragedy that she gets literally half a sentence. Like her whole tragic fate is reduced to like, a couple of words really? Like surely there's like more significance to her death? Because it is significant.

Zoe 

Yeah.

Lizzie 

And you want your pain to be significant.

Zoe 

And in a way, like, and her story is memorialized, or was for a while. I don't know if she's still there. It's kind of unclear.

Lizzie 

But also I guess every single biblical story is short. Like, I was surprised when I learned the Cain and Abel story is like, one smallish paragraph.

Zoe 

Yeah. These like little stories become so powerful. Because they're, I mean, people think about them so much.

Lizzie 

Yeah. Her story is really interesting, like, in a way, like the brevity of her appearance is exactly what lends it to so much interpretation. So even though it is small, that's what makes it so ripe for analysis.

Zoe 

Yeah. And what's also interesting is that despite like, hundreds of years of people being like, this woman sucks, you shouldn't be like her. Nowadays, people write about her a lot in a much more sympathetic way. Like people understand her. Even though people are still like—

Lizzie 

the tide has turned.

Zoe 

—she sucks. Don't be like her. It's like what I am like her. What about it.

Lizzie 

Yeah. And like she was leaving her life of sin, if she was living a life of sin. So like, the fact that she looked back doesn't necessarily like... it then makes it so she never moved on from her city of sin. She never got a chance to.

Zoe 

Yeah, she never got a chance to is really the thing of it. Right.

Lizzie 

So yeah, very interesting story. Thank you, Zoe.

Zoe 

Thanks for listening.

Lizzie 

Please feel free to subscribe. Leave a review was into our other episodes and we will see you back here in two weeks.

Zoe 

Thank you.