71. Creator Goddesses (Themed Episode #15)

(Musical intro)

 

Lizzie 

Hello, and welcome to Mytholadies, a podcast where we talk about women from mythologies and folklore all over the world. We're your hosts.

 

Zoe 

I'm Zoe.

 

Lizzie 

And I'm Lizzie. And I also forgot to ask you how you are.

 

Zoe 

I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm visiting friends at college right now. I'm not at the college that I normally am this semester because I'm going abroad, which is very exciting. But that doesn't start until a little bit later. So I am just chilling at home, bopping around, seeing people, relaxing. It's honestly--

 

Lizzie 

That's awesome.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. Lizzie, how are you?

 

Lizzie 

I'm doing fine, uh.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

It's a bit up and down. I've been at work, which is nice. But I'm also more busy. And now I'm at my girlfriend's, which is fun. And they got a cat and I love her. Her name is Isla.

 

Zoe 

Yes. Isla, our little Mytholadies mascot.

 

Lizzie 

Exactly. Um, Yeah. So that's how I am (laughs). And next order of business is we have a new bonus episode.

 

Zoe 

Yes, we do!

 

Lizzie 

Which is--which features Zoe's friend Charley, and we talk about the first Percy Jackson book, which I have not read. And so they explain it, the plot and everything to me.

 

Zoe 

Yes, me and Charley have read many times and are quite passionate about--

 

Lizzie 

Yes. So that's quite fun.

 

Zoe 

This is the first in a series of which we will explain all of the Percy Jackson books to Lizzie. I would recommend subscribing if you want to hear all those episodes.

 

Lizzie 

Yes, in order to--

 

Zoe 

They're quite fun, in my opinion.

 

Lizzie 

They are. And in order to hear our bonus episodes, you can either subscribe on Spotify subscriptions or donate money on Ko-fi, which we would be very grateful for.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. Thank you so much for all those who have already donated as well.

 

Lizzie 

Yes.

 

Zoe 

Also, thank you so much for sitting out our January break.

 

Lizzie 

Oh yeah, we didn't mention that.

 

Zoe 

It's been a very--

 

Lizzie 

We took a break because we were busy--well, I was busy (laughs). But you were also busy.

 

Zoe 

We were busy. Yes. It was a good break. It was-it was helpful, it was refreshing.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

We're back with a bonus episode and some new ladies for you. So yeah. Shall I introduce our topic today?

 

Lizzie 

Yes.

 

Zoe 

All right. So today, it's our first bonus episode of the year, so we wanted to talk a bit about creation stories and women who created the world. Creation stories are personally some of my favorite myths because they're so fun.

 

Lizzie 

Same.

 

Zoe 

I love how they explain things.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, exactly.

 

Zoe 

'Cause they're like, this is like this 'cause of this, and it's like, oh my gosh!

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Like, um--

 

Lizzie 

It's always like, whoa!

 

Zoe 

--what's a good one? The elephant has a long nose because the lion pulled on it (Lizzie laughs). The lion--the king lion pulled on it, because he was--I can't remember the exact story, but it was something like that. Very fun things like that. Yeah, absolutely delightful. And a lot of the time the creator god is depicted or thought of as male. But there are also a lot of instances of women being creators as well. And like, that does make sense to me. Both of those make sense to me because we do--we live in a society. We live in a patriarchal society. So depicting a male figure as the creator of everything aligns with the patriarchal worldview of--

 

Lizzie 

Much of society, yeah.

 

Zoe 

--men coming first and being the source of everything.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. And if you think about, like, the Christian creation story, like the first person was a man as well.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Which kind of sets the scene for, like, that whole worldview. But that's not how it is everywhere, so...

 

Zoe 

Yeah. But also, it makes a lot of sense for the creator god to be female as well. Of course, this isn't the case for all women, but traditionally, women in a lot of places have been associated with childbirth and bringing forth new life. And so it makes sense that they were--women were associated with the creation of the very first life. Yeah. And so my first lady today is Estsanatlehi, who is from the Navajo creation story. Her name means "the woman who changes," or "she who renews herself," and she's also known as "the painted woman" or "the turquoise woman." And she's known by these names because she does not age. When she begins to grow old, she will walk into the east until she sees her younger self coming to join her and then she keeps walking and eventually her younger self merges with her older self and she's renewed. So--

 

Lizzie 

That's pretty awesome.

 

Zoe 

--it's very cyclical.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Um, kind of the sunset and the sunrise. And she's the wife of the sun. She lives with him in a turquoise palace on the western sea. And she's the sister of the White Shell Woman, or the wife of the moon. And the story that she's mostly associated with is as follows. So the ancestral goddess Atse-Estsan, or the first woman, found Estsanatlehi on the ground beneath the mountain and raised her. She fed her pollen, and Estsanatlehi grew to adulthood in 18 days. And when she was fully grown, she met a young man and began to meet with him regularly in the woods. She began, like, you know, hooking up with him, basically.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

But one day, her parents couldn't find her. And so they looked on the grounds and saw only one set of footprints. And they realized that meant the sun had taken her to be a lover because the sun didn't leave footprints.

 

Lizzie 

Ooh.

 

Zoe 

And they were really happy because it was a great honor to her family to be the lover of the sun. And so her and the sun got married. And as the sun, her husband, leaves her house every morning and visits her at the end of the journey every evening. However, one day she grew lonely because their husband was out all day, and she used pieces of her skin to fashion the first humans to keep her company.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. And she also gave birth to two twin sons, who were immensely powerful. They grow into adults within eight days and upon receiving weapons from their father began to kill off all the monsters that roamed the land. And eventually only four remained, which were misery age, hunger, and winter. And they decided to keep those so they could value life and her gifts all the more.

 

Lizzie 

Cool.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Give them something to appreciate--contrast all the good things. And the sons celebrated this, but unfortunately, their ferocious battles had wiped out all other life on Earth. And so Estsanatlehi decided she wanted to create more humans. So she wiped flour from her right breast and cornmeal from her left breast. She mixed them with water to make a dough, and from this dough, she shaped humankind once again and placed them under a magical blanket. And the next day they were alive. They grew to adulthood in four days and gave birth to the forerunners of the four great Navajo clans. And therefore humankind as we know it today was created. And I love the detail of white flour and cornmeal because those are such staple foods.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

And it makes sense that those are things that we would, like, be created from.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me of how I've been--I'm in the UK, and I can't find cornmeal anywhere. And I'm like, oh...

 

Zoe 

Really?

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, apparently it's all--I mean, it makes sense because a lot of corn is grown in the Americas, I guess? But I'm like--

 

Zoe 

So true. It's everywhere.

 

Lizzie 

--trying to make cornbread, but they probably don't eat cornbread here. Which is so sad.

 

Zoe 

Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

Cornbread is awesome.

 

Zoe 

That's interesting. Yeah, I do love cornbread. Do you like cornbread to be sweet or not, Lizzie?

 

Lizzie 

Yes, I guess, but not, like, very. Like, I feel like cornbread is great to just have butter on.

 

Zoe 

Interesting. True. That is true. Um, anyways, it's like yeah, these are the fun--like, the staples. Flour. Water. cornmeal.

 

Zoe 

And so the fact that humans were made from it is like, yeah!

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Makes absolute sense.

 

Zoe 

Totally makes sense.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

So as a goddess, her themes are weather, fertility, beauty, blessings, summer, time, and cycles. And she grows old in the fall and the winter and becomes rejuvenated again in the spring as she walks east. She blesses humankind with gentle rains, bountiful harvest, growth in the spring, and changing of the seasons. And she's particularly invoked to this day to help young girls grow into womanhood. So she's also--she's associated as well as, like, with the creation of first life, with things that allow for life to continue such as you know, good harvests, gentle rains, growth--

 

Lizzie 

Makes sense.

 

Zoe 

--cycles, and also, you know, the development of--into adulthood, which is really cool. So that's our first lady, our first creation lady.

 

Lizzie 

That's really nice. Wholesome.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

So our next lady is the goddess Papatuanuku from Māori mythology. She is part of the creation story, along with her husband, Ranginui or Rangi, and she is also called Papa. And so the legend goes that Rangi, the sky, and Papa, the earth, laid together and created their children, the gods, all of whom, at this time, were male.

 

Zoe 

Hmm!

 

Lizzie 

And they also included the god Tāne, who was one of the big gods of Māori mythology. And so the gods were forced to live in the space between them, between the sky and the earth, which was cramped and dark. And the children discussed amongst themselves what they should do to solve this problem. And someone even suggested that they kill their parents--

 

Zoe 

Whoa.

 

Lizzie 

--so that they could escape from this cramped area.

 

Zoe 

Hmm.

 

Lizzie 

 And so Tāne, the god of forests and birds, pressed his hands against the body of his mother and planted his feet on his father and then straightened his back and pushed against Rangi. And then the bodies of Rangi and Papa were thrust apart, and Rangi was hurled far away.

 

Zoe 

Oh! I see!

 

Lizzie 

And thus--yeah, and that's why the sky is really far away from her.

 

Zoe 

Cool.

 

Lizzie 

And so Papa obviously grieved her beloved was far away now. And a veil of Silver Mist hung over her, and drops of water fell from Rangi's eyes like rain.

 

Zoe 

Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

Sidenote. I feel like when--at least me, when I was a kid, it was like, oh, it's raining 'cause, like, God is crying, or something like that.

 

Zoe 

I've heard that before. I mean, that sounds like something I've heard before.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, and it makes sense. Tears look like rain. So then Tāne felt bad, so he worked to clothe his mother in beauty that had not been dreamed of in the dark world. He brought his own children, the trees, and set them on Earth. And he also brought his other children, the birds and insects, to clothe her body. 'Cause I don't know if I said this, but she's the personification of earth, not just an earth goddess.

 

Zoe 

Okay.

 

Lizzie 

And so now the earth is all decorated and pretty, and the gods frolicked under the leaves of the garden of Tāne. And each had a duty to perform. And Tāne also ended up taking pity on his father, who had been sent far away where it was dark and gray. And so he took the sun and placed it on Rangi's back, and put the silver moon in front of it. He travelled through the ten heavens till he found a garment of glowing red, and then he rested for seven days, and then spread the cloak across the sky from east to west, north to south. But he was not satisfied. He said it wasn't worthy of his father, and stripped it off.

 

Zoe 

Hmm!

 

Lizzie 

But a small piece remained, which is a fragment of the garment men still see at the time of the setting sun.

 

Zoe 

Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

So that's like the sunset, I guess.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Or part of the sunset.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

So yeah, that's the creation of the world. But in addition to that, there's also stories of the creation of other things.

 

Zoe 

Cool!

 

Lizzie 

Such as the create--the coming of life, like humans.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

So as I mentioned, Rangi and Papa gave birth to many gods, but they were all male, and the female element, or uha, was missing. So Tāne began to search for the female elements, and asked his mother, Papa, for help. She advised that he go to Kurawaka, "for in that place the female is in a state of virginity and potentiality." And she told him to gather up the earth in the form of man once he was there, like, from red soil.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

So Tony went and scraped up the Earth, formed first the body, then the head and the arms. He joined the legs, he patted down the surface of the belly so as to give the form of a man.

 

Zoe 

Mm!

 

Lizzie 

And when he did this, he returned to Papa and told her he was finished. But Papa advised him to go to these different female ancestors, such as Mauhi, and they would give him various things that he needed. And so he did that. And then finally she was--he was able to form a woman.

 

Zoe 

Ahh!

 

Lizzie 

Who was called Hine-ahu-one, or the Earth-formed maid.

 

Zoe 

Interesting.

 

Lizzie 

So that's the creation story of the first human being, who is notably a woman.

 

Zoe 

That is very interesting.

 

Lizzie 

Isn't it? So before I say a bit more, like, what is, like, what does that make you think of? Like the red soil turning into a woman?

 

Zoe 

Lot's wife?

 

Lizzie 

What are your thoughts on that?

 

Zoe 

Like, is that what you're thinking of?

 

Lizzie 

Oh, (laughs) no, it's not.

 

Zoe 

Oh. Okay. Red soil turning into a woman. I don't know. I mean--

 

Lizzie 

But I do think that it was mentioned in my reading that like, this is also how Adam was formed.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, I mean, a lot of creation myths are made out of clay, which is really interesting. And fun.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

There's, like, some sort of molding or sculpting aspect to it, whether it's like mud or clay or like paste from like, I--you know, flour and cornmeal, which is interesting. Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, exactly.

 

Zoe 

I don't have anything specific. It makes me think.

 

Zoe 

Oh!

 

Lizzie 

That's okay. I'm gonna tell you the correct answer. So, um, Papa's role in this story is already very important, clearly, but even more so when you learn that although many sources don't mention this, Kurawaka, the place where Tāne had to go to get the red soil to make the first woman, is located at Papa's vulva. And the red soil, is her menstrual blood--

 

Lizzie 

--the red soil that created the woman is her menstrual blood.

 

Zoe 

Interesting.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense, right?

 

Zoe 

Okay.

 

Lizzie 

Like, red soil can be used to make a person--

 

Zoe 

Red soil, red blood.

 

Lizzie 

Right. And so Dr. Ngāhuia Murphy, in her paper "TE AWA ATUA, TE AWA TAPU, TE AWA WAHINE: An examination of stories, ceremonies and practices regarding menstruation in the pre-colonial Māori world" talks about this in detail, and it's very interesting. This is just a part of it, but--but it's interesting first, because Papa's role is more than just the giver of knowledge here, which is as told in sort of other versions, like the sort of, like, post-colonial versions. But she's also directly involved in the creation of the first human and her role in this creation mirrors the way that women do typically give birth to new life.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

And Murphy also talks in this paper about how when Māori women get their period, traditionally, it's something to be celebrated.

 

Zoe 

Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

As it connects you to Papa and to your female ancestors. And she mentions that this is in direct opposition to colonial ideas about menstruation, which view it as more shameful.

 

Lizzie 

And that women on their periods are contaminated.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, that's true.

 

Lizzie 

But this is a much more positive, less shameful approach. And it's actually really interesting that there's, like, rituals involved with menstruating and giving birth and everything that are like meant to connect you to Papa. Which I think is really nice.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm. I mean, I remember when I got my period for the first time it was like so--it was scary! I was like--

 

Lizzie 

I know, I was so upset (laughs).

 

Zoe 

I was like, What is this? And so the idea of having celebrations is like great! Then it's like, oh my gosh guys, guess what!

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Time for--time for you to celebrate me, I got my first period (Lizzie laughs). Oh, that girl got her period? That's--

 

Lizzie 

Exactly.

 

Zoe 

--so unfair. I wanna get my period (Lizzie laughs). Like, I don't know, like, it makes it more exciting and fun, like, instead of something scary because, like, you're bleeding. Like, it makes it something more exciting.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Like literally, you know.

 

Lizzie 

And the element of it being so shameful is like--I was even, like, kind of like embarrassed a bit at first to talk about menstruation, but I was like, You know, that's like the opposite of the themes here. Like, it's okay to, like, talk about it and be open about it. It's perfectly normal.

 

Zoe 

Yeah! You're, like, throwing a party to tell everyone you're like, you know, it's really-really great.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, nothing wrong with that. I think it's-it's pretty cool that menstruation is involved in the creation story. Like, it makes absolute sense.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm. Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

And that like, traditional Māori customs celebrate, like, being closer to Papa by getting your period. Like, that's awesome.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. Yeah, it's really great.

 

Lizzie 

It's just how a creation goddess can, like, still be really relevant--

 

Zoe 

Yeah, for sure.

 

Lizzie 

--in the daily lives of people. Okay, but like, often--'cause often creation deities aren't that important--

 

Zoe 

After the fact.

 

Lizzie 

--in the whole pantheon.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, like even, like, for example, Greek mythology, Gaia is not that important besides the she's the earth mother.

 

Zoe 

And she keeps--she like, causes trouble. Like, she's like, screw you guys (Lizzie laughs). Here's some giants you have to kill.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, right. Yeah. But yeah, anyway.

 

Zoe 

I mean, also, like, the idea of, you know, periods being considered unclean, in a lot of, like, cultures, and periods' blood being, like, the creation of life, like the life-creating substance I feel is like the opposite of being unclean. It's like this is the most important, like, substance there is.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, true.

 

Zoe 

Anyways.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah (laughs). So that paper is really interesting if you want to read more about Māori practices regarding menstruation and Papa in relation to menstruation. Anyway. But another quote from this paper is, "According to Māori, women in labor were often regarded as imitating Papatuanuku and her laboring of the elemental beings, mimicking her at a microcosmic level." So that's cool.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm. Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

So that's her. I think her story is pretty awesome.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, I think that's super fun. So now we're going to go to what is known now colonially as the Northern Territories in Australia, and we're going to talk about the Djanggawul sisters. And this is a myth of the Yolngu people of Arnhem Land in what--yeah, in the Northern Territories, and specifically there figures in the story are the ancestors of the Dua moiety, which is like a kinship group. And even more specifically, the Rirratjingu clan. So there are two sisters. The eldest is named Bildjwuraroiju, and the younger is named Miralaidj. And they're the daughters of Yirrkalla, the sun goddess.

 

And so during the Dreamtime, which is a time of the creation of the worlds, they traveled with their brother, Djanggawul, in his canoe, and they were carrying with them several items that were important for women. They had carvings of a parrot, they had a goanna, which is a carnivorous lizard native to Australia, they had a porpoise and an ant. And it also had a uterus-shaped mat in a sacred pouch. And they also had, um, mentally, they had a few sacred songs only they knew, and when sung could create a great deal of power.

 

And so Djanggawul, their brother, was not happy that they knew the songs and he didn't. He wanted access to that power, but they refused since only the songs and their sacred objects can protect women from men's violence. But Djanggawul came up with a plan to get them. So firstly, he seduced Bildwjuraroiju, the eldest sister and when she became pregnant with his child, prepared to move to the human world, aka, this world, so that it had a land upon which they could raise it. But the younger sister didn't want to be left out. So she also slept with Djanggawul and conceived a child by him so that she also needed to travel with them to have a place for their child to stay.

 

But when they reached the world, which is our world, it was dry and unfertile, so the sisters used their digging sticks to draw water from the earth and their poles to create plants. Then, once the earth was fertile, they blessed it with their songs and totems. And so in this way they traveled across the land, making it fertile and blessing it, bringing up water, creating plants, etc. And eventually because they were still pregnant, they became too pregnant and they had to stop to give birth. And they also, while they stopped, performed the very first ngarra ceremony, which is a ceremony very important to people in this region to this day.

 

And so once they gave birth, their children became the first people to populate this world and also the founding members of the Rirratjingu clan. And then once they had given birth, they took up their mission once more and also created laws and rituals to help govern their children when they began to argue. And then as they continued west, they gave birth to more children, who became the founding members of other groups among the Dua moiety. So the other members of the kinship group. And even so, Djanggawul was not satisfied. He still wanted to get their totems and their songs, and he finally managed to steal them. But despite the powerful items being lost, the sisters decided that that the power of their womb was enough. And they did not fight with their brother to gain back their totems. They continued onward. And that's really their story.

 

Lizzie 

Nice.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

I think it's cool that there's two sisters. Yeah.

 

Zoe 

I mean, I think that's really fun. I don't think we see a ton of creation stories in which there's only--in which there's more than one person at the same time that are not like, you know, the mother and the father--

 

Lizzie 

Of the same gender.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, like two people of the same gender who were created, or whatever.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Zoe 

And so that's really cool. I mean, it's a full creation story. They were literally bringing life to the earth, which is very interesting, and very lovely. And yeah.

 

Lizzie 

I agree. And so my next lady is called Mawu, and she is from Dahomey mythology and she is a creator goddess. Oh, also called Vodun. Dahomey mythology, aka Vodun, was practiced by the Fon people of the Dahomey kingdom, which is located in present-day Benin.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

And, um, as we know from previous episodes, Dahomey mythology eventually inspired Haitian Vodou and Louisiana Voodoo as well. So many of the aspects of Vodun are also now present in Vodou and Voodoo. But yes, so she is called Mawu or Mahu. And she is either the female counterpart to the male spirit, Lisa or they form together Mawu-Lisa, an androgynous spirit.

 

Zoe 

Oh!

 

Lizzie 

So sometimes-sometimes it's Mawu, sometimes It's Mawu and Lisa separately, and sometimes it's them together as Mawu-Lisa. And so in their pairing, Mawu represents the moon and the night, and Lisa represents the sun and the daytime.

 

Zoe 

Kind of like yin and yang.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah! Yeah, basically. Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Sort of. Not really, but like (laughs), sort of.

 

Lizzie 

I mean, the thing of like, the female element being the moon and the male element being like the sun.

 

Zoe 

Yes. That. That's the way. That's what I was thinking of.

 

Lizzie 

No, that's--I know. That's what I thought you mean, yeah. Um, and so Mawu, or Mawu-Lisa, created the earth and all of the deities of the Fon pantheon, and divided up the realms among her children. And only one of her children, Legba, has the ability to communicate with Mawu-Lisa directly.

 

Zoe 

Mmm.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

And the other spirits and all humans have to communicate with them through Legba, who is known as Papa Legba in Haitian Vodou. Which, this does remind me of what I know about Vodou, which is that there's like--it's like some-somewhat monotheistic, somewhat polytheistic, and that there's like a Supreme Being, and then all the spirits kind of like report to them--

 

Lizzie 

--the mediums through--humans--like, humans can connect to the Supreme Being through, like, the loas.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

So--but yeah. And so, according to the creation myth, Mawu-Lisa created the earth and everything on it. Plus--but then became concerned it might be too heavy, and according to legend, had the snake spirit, Aido-Hwedo, coil into a circle and become a cushioning support for Earth.

 

Zoe 

Interesting!

 

Lizzie 

Isn't it? And it's often a detail that Aido-Hwedo existed even before the creation of the universe and carried Mawu-Lisa in his mouth as she shaped the universe. The snake was also there to sort of help shape the universe.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, okay.

 

Lizzie 

With Mawu-Lisa.

 

Zoe 

So it was just there.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah (laughs). And since Aido-Hwedo supported the earth, earthquakes were caused by his movement.

 

Zoe 

Mmm.

 

Lizzie 

 And since he moved around in an endless coil, this is what caused the movement of the heavenly bodies.

 

Zoe 

Cool! Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Isn't that cool? I feel like it's-it's interesting when they talk about astrol--not astrology. Astronomy. Like, that's often not in-in creation myths. So it's really cool when it is.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, like the wolves that are chasing the sun and moon in Norse mythology, and that's why they keep going across the sky.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, awesome. Or, I guess most creation myths mention the sun and the moon, but not so much other stuff. Anyway, so also, traditionally, the Fon had a four day week in recognition of the four days in which Mawu-Lisa created the world. On the first day, she gave birth to the gods and goddesses of the Vodun and made humans out of clay.

 

Zoe 

Lovely. Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

Once again, humans out of clay. On the second day, she made earth habitable for humans. On the third day, she gave humans speech, sight, and awareness. And on the fourth day, she gave humans the skills they needed to survive.

 

Zoe 

Awesome. That's very interesting that humans were created immediately, but then the next few days were for giving humans more things that they needed in order to survive.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

So it's like, you sort of create the empty husk of the human, and then you sort of slowly fill it, as opposed to, like, their being born ready-made.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

 

Zoe 

Which is interesting. you know, it's an interesting conception of how things moved.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, it's pretty cool. And so another thing that's interesting about the creation myth is its use of the world serpent.

 

Zoe 

Yes!

 

Lizzie 

Which is the mythological motif found in a few other creation stories. It's not like that common from what I could see. Like. the world's turtle and the world egg are both more common.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah (laughs). And in bed motif is like, where a serpent supports or creates or helps create the world. And some other examples of this are Jörmungandr from Norse mythology--

 

Zoe 

I love them, though.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

--who was an ouroboros circle--

 

Zoe 

Yes!!

 

Lizzie 

 --eating its own tail.

 

Zoe 

I love an ouroboros!

 

Lizzie 

Great word (both laugh).

 

Zoe 

Love to bite our own tails.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

I don't know. It's a great symbol. Anyways, continue. Much to think about.

 

Lizzie 

There's also Shesha from Hindi mythology who holds all the planets of the universe in his hood. It's like one of those like, hooded--

 

Zoe 

Yeah, it's a cobra, right?

 

Lizzie 

--you know?

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. Or--yeah, and-and constantly sings the glories of Vishnu.

 

Zoe 

Also if I were to name a snake, I would absolutely name it Shesha. Like, that's a snake name.

 

Lizzie 

Exactly. Yeah (laughs). It makes absolute sense. Yeah. And so--and he also sings the glories of Vishnu from all his mouths.

 

Zoe 

Oh, he has multiple?

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, apparently.

 

Zoe 

Terrifying.

 

Lizzie 

And apparently there's also a deity in Dungeons and Dragons called World Serpent. So.

 

Zoe 

Wow, really creative. Great job--

 

Lizzie 

Pretty awesome.

 

Zoe 

Great job, guys. You did it (both laugh). Um, yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah,

 

Zoe 

Also a multi-headed cobra--um, as someone who's, like, actually afraid of snakes, um, terrifying. Cool, but terrifying. Um, anyways.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, I don't know if it's like a dangerous snake because it's supporting the earth. Or maybe it is

 

Zoe 

I mean, definitely it's not dangerous in mythology, but like, just in real life, yes, it is dangerous.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, no, it's-it's a creepy image. Yeah.

 

Zoe 

I don't know, I don't like snakes.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, that would be, um, horrible.

 

Zoe 

I don't like snakes, but I like the world serpent because I love the idea of the earth being supported by an animal, whether it's a serpent or a turtle. I just think it's fun.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

And I love the idea of the snake, like, going around and around. And that causes the rotation of the Earth. Like, that's--

 

Lizzie 

Yeah!

 

Zoe 

--it's also similar to an Ouroboros in that it's just going around and around and around, you know, in my opinion.

 

Lizzie 

I mean, it really is one, right? Like, that's what the world serpent is.

 

Zoe 

The continued cycles? But yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Pretty awesome.

 

Zoe 

Very fun.

 

Lizzie 

So that's Mawu.

 

Zoe 

Love that.

 

Lizzie 

And the world serpent.

 

Zoe 

Yes. So, um, staying in West Africa, we're gonna talk about Woyengi, who is an Ijo figure. So the Ijo or Ijaw are an ethnic group found primarily around the Niger River Delta and Nigeria, and make up about 1.8% of Nigeria's population. And she is a female creator of the world, shockingly, that's the theme of the episode (Lizzie laughs). And her name means "great mother" in Ijo, the language. And so she was standing at the edge of the vast universe when she noticed a planet filled with animals, vegetation, and not much else. She was curious about it, so she descended to the earth in a bolt of lightning.

 

Lizzie 

Ooh!

 

Zoe 

Before she landed, a few objects appeared for her to use. There was a iroko tree, a table, a large chair and a Creation Stone. And then when she appeared, she sat in the chair and propped her feet up on the stone. And then, now she was nice and comfortable, she used the mud of the earth to create sexless human-shaped dolls, and then filled them with the breath of life, creating the first human souls. And since they were now alive, the humans asked Woyengi what their purpose was. Which, great first question to have once you're created by a spirit or God. And she told them to choose whether they wanted to be male or female, what blessings they wanted to receive and their preferred occupation. I love this. I love all of this so much (laughs).

 

Lizzie 

Ooh! I would love to be able to choose my occupation, as well. I mean, I guess I can (Zoe laughs), but like, as one of the first humans of the world.

 

Zoe 

Choose your gender, choose your occupation, choose your blessing. And once they had these choices made--

 

Lizzie 

That's great (laughs).

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

--they were sent down either a calm or torrential stream, and once they sent down the stream, there was no going back from their choices because she was also the goddess of destiny as well as the creator goddess. So like, based on the choices you would get sent down, like, either a rougher or more calm stream, based on, I guess, like, how difficult your things were.

 

Zoe 

But--yeah, basically the symbolic thing of like, you're going and you can't come back. Um, and eventually, among these created souls were two women. One chose to have many children, and one chose not to have children, but wanted to have magical powers over the world, such as the ability to heal wounds and prophesy the future. And so these two women grew up as sisters, and they were happy for a while. But then the second woman, whose name was Ogboinba, became discouraged because she could not enjoy the love of a child. And overwhelmed by her sadness, she travelled all the way back to Woyengi and asked that she could make a different choice, and that she could take her original choice back. But since she is the goddess of destiny, and the fate had been decided, Woyengi denied her request and told her that she had made her choice, she couldn't change it, and that was it. She couldn't change her fate. However, despite this rejection, Ogboinba was not satisfied, and was not taking no for an answer. She challenged Woyengi to a magical duel!

 

Lizzie 

 Awesome.

 

Zoe 

However, Woyengi refused to entertain this audacious request and instead simply took away her magic powers. So now she had nothing, not even chil--no children, no powers, nothing. And then Ogboinba fled into the eyes of pregnant women and remains there to this day, looking at their children longingly, I guess. But yeah, that is the main story of Woyengi, who came to Earth from the edge of the universe, decided to create humans on it, and then had them choose their destiny.

 

Lizzie 

I think that's so fun. Imagine like, I don't know if it's just for the first humans. Probably yeah, just for the first humans, but like, imagine, like, being born and then being like, you get to choose your occupation. And then whatever you choose, like, that's your life, I guess, kind of--I mean, it's--because there's a portion to it that could be kind of depressing, but like, I think it's pretty fun.

 

Zoe 

It's like, kind of like The Giver, but also not because they're assigned their occupation. But then they're like, well, that's your occupation. Like, they're not going to stop you from pursuing that occupation. And they're gonna give you everything you need in order to have that occupation. I don't know.

 

Lizzie 

I haven't read that.

 

Zoe 

You haven't read The Giver?

 

Lizzie 

No.

 

Zoe 

Ahh! Lizzie! Oh, my gosh!

 

Lizzie 

I know.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Oh, my gosh (Lizzie laughs). Anyways, um, anyways--what was I saying? I'm so distracted now. I think it's probably like your soul before you're born gets the choice, and they choose all these things.

 

Zoe 

And then when you're born you don't remember it. But like, it's kind of like predestination, I guess. Like, everything that happens is what you were supposed--was supposed to happen. And you can't really change it.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, exactly. Which is somehow--it's depressing in a way, but also kind of nice, in a way, I guess.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, yeah, everything happens for a reason sort of idea.

 

Lizzie 

It's a really interesting creation story. It's very fun. Gives you a lot to think about, kinda,

 

Zoe 

I mean, I have to say they can choose their gender. We love it. We love it. Trans-inclusive.

 

Zoe 

That's so true. Everyone listening at home, you can choose your gender (Lizzie laughs). You wanna try out a gender? Do it. Go for it. No one's stopping you. I mean--

 

Lizzie 

That's pretty great. I mean (laughs), technically, everyone--technically anyone can choose their gender, but that's, uh--

 

Lizzie 

Exactly.

 

Zoe 

--society is trying to stop you. But like, if you ever wanted to try out a gender, do it.

 

Zoe 

This is my sales pitch, sponsored by Gender, Inc. Sponsor of the podcast. Anyways (both laugh). Anyways, Lizzie, who's our next lady?

 

Lizzie 

Go for it.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. So our next lady is Amamikyu, who is a creation goddess from the religion of the Ryukyu Islands in Japan, which are a chain of islands in the southwest of Japan, that stretch between Kyushu and Taiwan. And the it says a group of like, I think 70 islands--

 

Zoe 

Wow.

 

Lizzie 

--and their religion is characterized by ancestor worship and animism, and also has influence from folk beliefs and other religions, such as Shinto.

 

Zoe 

Cool, cool.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. And so the Ryukyuan Islands are unique in that they believe in onorigami, or the spiritual superiority of women.

 

Zoe 

That is unique.

 

Zoe 

Okay.

 

Lizzie 

Which is nice.

 

Lizzie 

Right? Yeah. In Ryukyuan society, women have special roles regarding spirituality such as they perform rituals and tend to the hearth. Priestesses, who are called noro, are these spiritual practitioners of Ryukyuan society who perform ceremonies and communicate with ancestors and deities. But all women are considered to have inherent spiritual abilities. So, a quote regarding the roles of women and men from "Women In The Religious Life Of The Ryukyu Islands: Structure and Status" by Rosamund Bell: "For her part, a sister should be able to rely on her brother for protection in secular life. A sister is regarded as having the power to bless her brother (and also the power to curse him), while he is expected to help her economically if necessary, even after she is married." So yeah, different picture of life. Women are spiritually superior. And men also have, like, their own roles. But they are meant to help out women.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, it's interesting, because it's like--I mean, I don't know, I feel like it's not really the place to go into a full, like, analysis of like, gender roles in the society that I've learned about two seconds ago (Lizzie laughs). But it's an interesting--it's interesting in its--how it's different.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

You know, especially like in Christianity when a lot of the time in history for Christianity was like, women are the servants of the devil. It's a nice  change.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah! And like, women aren't allowed to be, like, priests and stuff. Or like, maybe they are now. I don't know.

 

Zoe 

Well, depends on what kind of Christianity you're talking about.

 

Lizzie 

Okay, fair.

 

Zoe 

Because like Catholicism? No. Uh, Episcopalianism? Yes. And they can marry.

 

Lizzie 

Okay.

 

Zoe 

And they can gay marry.

 

Lizzie 

Oh, that's cool.

 

Zoe 

Anyways, please tell me more about this lady (laughs).

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. And so I have two versions of the creation story. The first version was recorded-recorded in 1606 in "Account of the Ways of Gods in Ryukyu." So two deities appeared, the first being Amamikyu, and second being her brother, Shinerikyu. And notably, Amamikyu comes first. And they built huts side by side, and Amamikyu became pregnant from a gust of wind and three children were born. And one was the first lord, one was the first priestess, and one was the first of the common people.

 

Zoe 

Interesting.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. And the fire that they needed for their livelihood was obtained by Amamikyu from the Dragon Palace that was believed to be at the bottom of the sea.

 

Zoe 

Mm, cool.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, pretty cool. Second version, this one was recorded in 1650 in "Mirror of the Ages of Chuzan." Amamikyu was sent to earth by the Lord of Heaven to find a suitable place for the gods to dwell. She went to the Ryukyu Islands, where at this point there was only water, and she created the islands and bestowed them with trees, grass, stone, and earth. She then wished to populate the islands with people, but the Lord of Heaven and the other gods didn't want to go down to earth to do all this. So in this one, Amamikyu becomes pregnant with Shinerikyu's children, but without sexual intercourse.

 

Zoe 

Oh! Cool.

 

Lizzie 

And they populated the islands. And some generations later, a "heavenly grandson" named Tentei was born. And he split the islands into five classes with his three sons and two daughters.

 

Zoe 

Uh huh.

 

Lizzie 

And they became the first king of Ryukyu, the first high noble priestess, the first village priestess, the first feudal lord and the first farmer.

 

Zoe 

Okay, so there's a hierarchical system, or is it like hierarchical, or is it just like, you stick to your role?

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, so like for the three--I mean--

 

Zoe 

Is it possible to have one without the other anyways?

 

Lizzie 

Well, I mean, the men, as you can tell, are like three different social classes.

 

Zoe 

Uh huh.

 

Lizzie 

Which doesn't apply to the women, which, notably, the women are both priestesses, one noble, one village. There's distinction between like social classes of the men, but there's no difference in the spiritual power between the two women, and the fact that the only two women are both priestesses. They both have spiritual authority, and neither have a role in the secular world.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Which reflects the belief that all women, regardless of social class or any other distinction, have inherent spiritual power, and inherently act as religious specialists.

 

Zoe 

Interesting!

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. And another thing is, like, in the first myth, Amamikyu obtains the water from the Dragon Palace at the bottom of the sea, which as I mentioned earlier, women have the role of tending to the hearth fire.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

And also the-the fire came from below or beyond, which suggests contact between women and a supernatural source where they can summon and use a powerful element for the good of their community. So that reflects the role of women in Ryukyuan society, where women have inherent spiritual authority and have the role of tending to the hearth.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

So yeah.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. That's interesting. I like all that story a lot. I also, you know, it's interesting that she is first impregnated by the wind because I'm pretty sure there's like other instances in different mythologies where that happens to other female figures, often creation figures.

 

Lizzie 

There definitely is.

 

Zoe 

Um, which is really interesting, because first of all, you know, motifs and also it's like, I-I kind of see it as like, there's no other people. So who's going to impregnate her? The wind.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Because--

 

Lizzie 

Might as well be the wind.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. I mean, really cool. Really interesting. And yeah, again, love a good creation story, where it's like, this is why this is here. And this is how they made this, and things like that.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. And her tomb is located on Hamahiga Island in Okinawa, and the place where she made landfall, Sefa Utaki is one of the most sacred places in Ryukyuan religion, and also a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

 

Zoe 

Awesome. Very cool.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

All right. Our last lady is from Egypt. And she's one of the oldest Egyptian goddesses. Her name is Neith, and she originated in western parts of Egypt, closer to Libya. And she was very important very early on. Several queens of the first dynasty of Egypt, which was from around 2925 to 2775 BCE, were named after her. So several queens from the first dynasty of Egypt are named after her and therefore that means she must have been very significant 'cause, like, you're naming the queens after her, like, the queens are being like, this is the goddess I'm associated with. So very important. And she was generally depicted with a red crown associated with Lower Egypt, which I assume means she was associated with Lower Egypt as well. She was less associated with the physical creation with humans then with the actual creation of the world, the physical world itself.

 

Zoe 

And this is through her association with handicrafts. At the beginning of time, she strung her loom across the entire sky. And from this, she wove the entire world. And then she woke nets and use them to fish and living creatures from the primordial waters, which included the first man and woman. And not only that--just created the entire world no big deal--um, she also wove the very first burial shrouds for mummies. So incredibly important in a culture where mummies--

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

--and mummification is incredibly significant. Yeah, and she was connected with fertility as well, and invented midwifery and childbirth by helping with the birth of Ra, who was the sun god and the most important god in Egyptian mythology. And she was the mother of the crocodile god Sobek, and so her priestesses were doctors, midwives and healers. And she watched over their health and life, and after death she guided their remains while their spirits passed into the unknown. So here we have this sort of association with the creation of life, but also the end of life as well, which is interesting and not something we see as much in, like, the rest of the women we talked about today, I would say, for the most part. But cool, I love the duality of that there. Um, and her symbol is a set of crossed arrows, or two bows tied together, which could imply that she was associated with warriors and fighting. So again, we have that association with, like, death. And her worship reached the highest point during the 26th dynasty of Egypt, which was around 664 to 525 BCE, where the capital city was the city of Sais. And at this time, she was honored at multiple festivals, and in the most important one, her likeness as a cow with the sun between her horns was carried to the streets while people lit up their homes in honor of her. And I believe that she's sort of been associated with (Hathor as well because of the depiction as a cow with the sun between her horns.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Hathor's also depicted as a cow associated with fertility and creation, so that's also cool and interesting.

 

Lizzie 

Makes sense.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. And to go with our bonus episode, she is depicted by Rick Riordan in The Serpent's Shadow.

 

Lizzie 

That is related.

 

Zoe 

Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

I didn't know there was gonna be a link.

 

Zoe 

Yeah!

 

Lizzie 

Just two random topics (laughs).

 

Zoe 

No, yeah. Um, which is the third and final installation of his Egyptian mythology-inspired series, The Kane Chronicles. And so this interpretation focuses more on her warrior aspects as she is like, kind of depicted as a paranoid survivalist with a doomsday bunker, um, who hunts, like, humans--

 

Lizzie 

Wow.

 

Zoe 

--as a test. But it also mentioned her skill in weaving, particularly weaving nets for catching things, which is also a big part of her myth. So it doesn't mention her creation aspects myth as much, but it does focus on the weaving part, which is, of course, a big part in the creation myth. And yeah, that is Neith. And those are our ladies for today.

 

Lizzie 

Awesome.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, I've been--I was sort of thinking when I was doing the research of like, why do gods choose to create humans? Like, what's the point? And I feel like in-in your-in the first lady you talked about, it was like, she was bored and lonely?

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Which I'm like, yeah, so true. Like, if you had humans, you wouldn't be bored or lonely. Maybe you'd still be lonely. But--

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

--there's-there'd be a lot to worry about. And yeah.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. I mean, that's a very interesting question. Honestly, that's a really interesting question.

 

Lizzie 

Because like humans'll just create trouble, like, what's the point? But I guess, like, if you're a god, you need something to be the god of. Otherwise, you're, what are you doing? Not much that--not much, right? In a sense of like, if you need people to worship you--

 

Zoe 

I guess.

 

Lizzie 

--then you--there need to be humans.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, I guess so. I mean--whoa. I don't know. This is-this is deep. I hadn't even thought of this (both laugh). I--it's interesting. I mean, honestly, if you sort of look at the Christian creation myth of seven days, God is kind of like messing around. He's like, here, I'll do this. Here, I'll create this. That's good. I'll create this. That's-that's pretty good. And then he creates humans. And he says, that's very good. So it's sort of just like God messing around seeing what he can do. And he makes humankind. He's like, you know, that's pretty cool at me.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah!

 

Zoe 

And then he rests. And so it's like, a lot of the time it's just kind of them messing around. I feel like it's like, why not?.

 

Lizzie 

True, very true. For example, like in Amamikyu, it's like, clearly, it's an inevitability that humans need to be created. Like, that's-that's needed for the world.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

But it's like, why. Like, if humans didn't exist, your--you'd have to think about a whole new concept. Like it's like--like us, but not as skilled and die.

 

Zoe 

Okay. But also, Lizzie, if humans didn't exist, these myths wouldn't exist, because there'd be no one to talk about them.

 

Lizzie 

But like you--I'm just thinking about the motivation of these deities being like, I don't know. It's just, like, a thought exercise.

 

Zoe 

I mean, I guess, but I think that the myth and the human and the god and the human are fundamentally intertwined. And I think it's related to what you said about how they need--

 

Lizzie 

I mean, yeah.

 

Zoe 

--somebody that wanted to worship them or to acknowledge them as a god in order for them to--in order for them to exist.

 

Lizzie 

To be a god.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, as a god. Whether as like, to create them in the story or like to worship them and to keep having them be talked about throughout history and pass down their stories.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

They need humans for that. And like--

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe  

--ultimately from, like, a more practical, I guess, perspective, like, simply if there weren't humans, we wouldn't have these stories because we wouldn't have humans telling these stories. We're the only--as far as we know, we're the only animals that do storytelling, or that's comprehensible to us. So like--

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

There's no myths without humans.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

There's no humans without myth. Whoa, whoa! I'm thinking about things, Lizzie! I'm thinking about the human's inherent desire to tell stories and what it means about humanity. Someone make it stop (laughs).

 

Lizzie 

Exactly! That's the thesis of our podcast.

 

Zoe 

Girl, help. I'm thinking about the inherent need for storytelling in order to make sense of the universe.

 

Lizzie 

Exactly (both laugh). Anyway.

 

Zoe 

I think people are kind of--hopefully now people are understanding why--at least I, I can't speak for you--am so interested in mythology after all these years.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

From--even though it's been a while since I just started reading Percy Jackson. And we've come a long way.

 

Lizzie 

Like, to be interested in mythology is, like, to be interested in, like, humanity and, like, stories, and like how we make sense of the world.

 

Zoe 

And it's like, you can't have a creation myth where humans aren't created because like--

 

Zoe 

Humans are the ones telling it. They can't like, not be in there.

 

Lizzie 

Exactly.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah. 'Cause like, we know as humans telling these stories that, like, humans need to come at some point in this story (laughs).

 

Zoe 

Yeah, like, humans had to be created, or else like, you're like, the story is not accurate. Like, where are they?

 

Lizzie 

Or else none of us would exist.

 

Zoe 

Like, hello?

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, exactly.

 

Zoe 

Ah. Oh, my gosh, Wild. Wild (laughs). Thoughts are flying.

 

Lizzie 

Exactly.

 

Zoe 

I have to say.

 

Lizzie 

I--you know what, when we started doing this topic, I was like, okay, it's closer to like the earth mother thing is gonna come up, but it didn't really. But like, I think the only true like earth mother of these seven ladies was Papatuanuku because, like, she is not--she-she is the Earth.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

She didn't just create the Earth.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, I mean, I had some women I was looking at, um, and I was like, well, they didn't really create any--they were the Earth, but they aren't the creators.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

And that was what I was focusing on, was like the creating.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

And sometimes there's-there's similarity--sometimes they're the same. And sometimes they're not.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, there's like a Venn diagram. Sometimes they're both the creation god or like, or like the mother goddess, and also the earth mother. But sometimes they're different, and there's a distinction between them.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, obviously, like, as I said, you know, I've always thought creation stories are fun because of how it explains things. And it's interesting to see all the different explanations that exist or why things are the way they are.

 

Lizzie 

And I love seeing the differences between how different people describe the same thing.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

How they explain the same phenomenon.

 

Zoe 

I mean, scholars often argue that, like, the story of how humanity is created or how the world's created shows, like, the attitude of the culture whereas like if it's--

 

Lizzie 

Exactly!

 

Zoe 

--a kind of dark creation, like in Norse mythology, where the world is created from the dead corpse of a giant (Lizzie laughs) and humans are from driftwood that just happened to be washed onto the cosmic shore the gods stumbled upon one day, versus a world in which things were created on purpose, and a God created you and was like, that's very good. Those are two very different mindsets, basically.

 

Lizzie 

Definitely. Yeah.

 

Zoe 

And that's two very different cultures.

 

Lizzie 

That like provides some insight into the culture, yeah, which is awesome.

 

Zoe 

And like, there are appeals for both. Like, I can see the appeal of both to be honest. One's kind of like, nothing matters.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, definitely. Which like in the-in the way, like, nothing matters, it's-it's in a way heartening sometimes, because like, you don't have to think you don't have to like, not--there's not that much pressure on you.

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

If nothing matters anyway. But like the thought of like, oh, everyone's special is also nice.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, the thought of like, God looked down on you and was like, yeah, that's pretty good!

 

Lizzie 

That's just positive.

 

Zoe 

Like, I don't know. That's cute.

 

Lizzie 

And that like--and when you cook with cornmeal, it's like the building blocks of like, humanity, it's like, yeah. It makes your cornbread experience really positive.

 

Zoe 

Yeah, like, when I--when I make cornbread, I'm using the same materials that the creator of the world used to make humanity.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm. Yeah, it's wonderful.

 

Zoe 

That's really cool.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, and it's like--it's like, the creation stories, like, more than anything, get really, really into the like, Hey, why do we as humans like creating this, why do we tell them over and over? Why are we interested in them? And that's just awesome. It's like what--it's definitely something really interesting to talk about. Like (laughs) I host a mythology podcast, so obviously I'm interested in it. But like, how can you not be? It's so interesting.

 

Lizzie 

And the fact that like, every single culture out there does have a creation story. Like, we have to think about how we all came about, and why.

 

Zoe 

Mm hmm. Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

It's inherent in our humanity.

 

Zoe 

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, you can apply the concept of a creation story to things that are more concrete than, like, the universe, which is very hard to grasp. There's things like the creation story of America. What do we tell kids how--about how America was created? Versus--

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, I like--what does that say?

 

Zoe 

--what is more true. This is a little different 'cause there's more facts, whereas like the creation of the world--I guess there's, like, some things that are more fact than other but like, anyways. You know, like, what does that say? What does this person say about their--like, what is their personal creation myth about how they grew up in their life and what does that say about the image they're trying to project, you know? things like that?

 

Lizzie 

Yeah, we all create myths of ourselves and like other things in our lives, like, that's--it's what Florence + the Machine sings about. I don't know.

 

Zoe 

Where?

 

Lizzie 

 In the King she's like, something something, self-mythology.

 

Zoe 

Oh, so--

 

Lizzie 

We all create self-mythologies!

 

Zoe 

Yeah.

 

Lizzie 

Anyway.

 

Zoe 

We all create our own myths. Go create your own myth today.

 

Lizzie 

Exactly.

 

Zoe 

Brought to you by Myths, Inc. Our other sponsor of this podcast (Lizzie laughs).

 

Lizzie 

Exactly. Anyway, so the end. Listen to our bonus episode, and have a great day.

 

Zoe 

Yeah! Um, please make sure to subscribe, leave a review, tell your friends for real, do it. I know it's cringe. Do it anyway for us.

 

Lizzie 

Yeah.

 

Zoe 

Do it for #her. Anyways, thank you so much. Thanks for listening.

 

Lizzie 

Thank you.

 

Zoe 

See you in two weeks. Bye-bye.

 

Outro, underscored by music:

 

Lizzie 

Mytholadies podcast is produced, researched and presented by Elizabeth LaCroix and Zoe Koeninger. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter @Mytholadies and visit us on our website at mytholadies.com. Our cover art is by Helena Cailleaux. Our music was written and performed by Icarus Tyree. Thanks for listening. See you in two weeks!